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Msg # 470 Dated 03-13-84 17:58:45 From: DAN MOORE To: ALL Re: THEFT Well, I work for a Fortune 500 Co. and I'm responsible for PCs around here. Piracy is a real nice name for outright thft. Of course, most pirates do not think of themselves as thieves, but if they were caught and convicted they would undoubtedly be treated as such. The unfortunate result of piracy, which affects us honest people is that software prices keep going up due to loss of income. The reason people pirate software is simple: chances of being caught are slim to none, pretty much like taping records and breaking the speed limit. Some pirates enjoy bragging about their accomplishments at the User's Group meetings. Last, but not least, accepting pirated software is pretty much the same as pirating the software in the first place. Micropro, incidentally, estimates that one-third of all the copies of WordStar are illegal... I know many pirates who go to church. Msg # 475 Dated 03-15-84 12:07:34 From: RICHARD RAWLINS To: ALL Re: PACY AGAIN SURE WE ALL AGREE THAT PIRACY IS ILLEGAL AND A BAD WOUND IN THE SIDE OF THE PROGRAMMING BUSINESS AND OF COURSE ALL OF YOU WHO DUMP ON THE PIRATES ARE UPSTANDING CITIZENS WHO HAVE (AND NEVER WOULD) TAPE MUSIC FROM THE RADIO, TAPE A TV PROGRAM, OR HEAVEN FORBID XEROX AN ARTICLE FROM A MAGAZINEI'M NOT A PIRATE, I WORK FOR A LARGE INSURANCE COMPANY AND ITS THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY HERE AT WORK. I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING SURE THERE IS NO INADVERTANT PIRACY HERE. BUT COME ON FELLAS, LOOK AT THE REAL WORLD. LOOK AT THE POOR SCHMUCK WHO BUYS A $3000 COMPUTER AND AFTER HE GETS HOME FINDS OUT THAT HE HAS TO SPEND $10,000 OR MORE TO GET ALL OF THE SOFTWARE TO MAKE IT INTO A USEFUL (AND ENTERTAINING) MACHINE. HOW MANY GAMES ARE YOU GOING TO BUY AT $39.95 A SHOT. YOU CAN BUY A GOOD TYPEWRITER FOR THE COST OF A MEDIOCRE WORD PROCESSOR. WHAT REALLY CAME FIRST PIRACY OR RIDICULOUS SOFTWARE PRICES. SURE STOP THE PIRACAND PRICES WILL COME DOWN THE SOFTWARE HOUSES SAY. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, I'V GOT A BRIDGE IN BROOKLYN I'L SELL YOU REAL CHEAP. MAKE A CASE AGAINSSOFTWARE PIRACY FOR THE PROPER REASONS, BUT PLEASE, DON'T KEEP REPEATING ALL THE SAME OLD HACKNEYED PHRASES THAT THE SOFTWARE HOUSESPOUT. Msg # 481 Dated 03-16-84 15:17:23 From: HENRY YEH To: ALL Re: THEFT? Hello, i just want to respond to the debate about the piracy issue. if i had not copied one program since the purchase of my apple about 4-5 years ago, guess how many programs i would have? good guess! just the ones on the system master..(wow.) public domain is the answer you say? well, maybe for the ibm, but the only quality game i know ======= that is public domain is a defender imitation by some guy in san francisco...i do not know anyone in the tri-state area that has this program or any other quality software that is public domain. Msg # 482 Dated 03-16-84 21:39:07 From: TIM MCCLARREN To: ALL Re: ABOUT PIRACY Hello all, and before I say what I have to say, let me tell you who I am. My name is Tim McClarren, and I am calling from Wheaton, IL. Now, about the Piracy. Someone above commented about Lotus being $495 and we shouldn't complain about that. They also pointed out that the machine costs $3000. Well, in comparison, how much work do you think went into Lotus? how about the computer? Yes, you guessed it, it is possible that one person could write such an extensive program, but do you think the PC was designed and manufactured all by the same person? No, I think not. The $3000 you spend on a computer is rightfully spent, not the $495 you spend on Lotus. I'm sick of hearing that prices wouldn't be so high if there wasn't as much pirating. This is a crock if I've ever heard one. Those lousy software companies are gonna' suck up as much cash as they can! Especially something no one else has, such as Lotus or dBase II. Anyhow, I can't see someone agreeing with a giant corporation such as these, and being prejudiced towards the pirateers. I think I could see it from there side, even though it's illegal. Tim McClarren Msg # 483 Dated 03-16-84 23:06:09 From: SYSOP To: ALL Re: PIRACY, AGAIN TO: MR. YEH AND MR. MCLARREN: I just have to throw a few more cents worth in. Henry, when you bought your computer, didn't you look at the cost of software as well as hardware? Didn't you know that the two went hand-in-hand and that the software was going to cost something? Feeling that you are somehow justified in stealing software just because you have purchased a computer is no different than feeling justified in stealing gasoline because you bought a car!! So, what?! You buy a car knowing that gas is going to cost you a fortune in order to make any use of it. As for Mr. McLarren, I am personally sick of hearing complaints about "big corporations" and how that they are somehow morally obligated to give things away because they are so big! By that theory, IBM should be giving us these PC's. It's their product. Let them charge what they want..that is the whole basis for free enterprise. If they overcharge, don't buy their product....but don't you use it either! If it is not worth paying for, then it is not worth using, right? Use something that is worth the price. I cannot believe all the ways intelligent people who use computers can contrive to justify stealing! It is amazing. If you can't afford the software, maybe you shouldn't have the computer....or at least stick to the stuff you can afford. Comments? Loren D. Jones, SYSOP Msg # 484 Dated 03-17-84 14:29:20 From: TIM MCCLARREN To: SYSOP, ALL Re: PIRACY You have gotten me wrong. I didn't say I condone piracy nor do I pirate, I meant to say, I am not going to be the upright citizen type fellow and knock those who do. It is there business, and I also said I could see there side, which I can I also think I could see it from a business point of view (I wouldn't want anybody to pirate a program I wrote.) So, in effect, it is a no win situation. I just don't like to see the software so expensive. I don't mind the hardware as much, because it is more universal than the software. Tim McClarren Msg # 492 Dated 03-18-84 10:00:56 From: SYSOP To: ALL Re: A STORY The argument that piracy will not be resolved until software developers become more reasonable in their prices is a crock. I believe the only thing that will change it, short of distasteful hardware protection schemes...which are not far off, is a fundamental change in peoples' attitudes. Many of those doing it will continue, no matter how cheap it gets. It reminds me of a story I once heard. This guy asks this girl, "Will you go to bed with me if I give you $100,000?" Her eyes popped open and her mouth dropped. After a moments thought she replied, "Sure. Why not." He then said, "Would you go to bed with me for $1?" She turned red, slapped him and yelled "What kind of a girl do you think I am?!!" he calmly replied, "We have already established that.....all we are doing now is haggling over the price." In other words, is a thief any less of a thief because he steals expensive things that he thinks are over priced????? LDJ Msg # 496 Dated 03-19-84 16:31:44 From: HENRY YEH To: ALL Re: OPINION ON PIRACY-AGAIN hello, just saying what i think again..(oh no, right?) first of all, i didn't buy the computer, my dad did.... he has bought software for the computer, but do you think he will buy software to support my arcade fever?? no way, i have to earn it...and boy do i have to earn it. i would much rather buy accessories for the computer such as a fan, or another disk drive but with the software prices so high, i could buy (at the extreme) 2 games for the price of one disk drive as a result i turned to pirating... it may raise the cost of software but then again, the people who cheat on taxes (i am not saying you do) can afford the cost... also, to anybody who wants to answer... can you tell me why the supreme court ruled that people could copy movies or videotapes?? does that mean the owners of those machines can copy but not us? Msg # 500 Dated 03-19-84 17:46:03 From: SYSOP To: ALL Re: OPINION ON PIRACY-AGAIN With respect to Henry Yeh's question on copying: The Supreme Court did not say that anyone can freely copy video tapes or records. They said that the taping of programs broadcast over the airwaves was a "fair use" within the meaning set forth by congress, since in effect it was a way of time-shifting. In other words, I can tape a show that I would have been able to watch at home had I been there. But are you copying a program that you otherwise would have had a right to have? I don't think so. The legal area is still a mess and will probably remain so for a period of time. But I have no doubt that congress or the courts (preferably congress) will come to some kind of conclusion and it will be to the effect that any owner of a program can have as many copies of it as he likes, but he cannot sell it or give it away....which is only reasonable. No one has yet given me one good reason why they should be able to copy and use software which they have not purchased. LDJ Msg # 510 Dated 03-22-84 16:06:02 From: TIM MCCLARREN To: SYSOP, ALL Re: ABOUT THIS PIRACY BIT Hi all. Yes, I have to talk again. O.K. Well, Loren, I envy your ability to be honest and yet still maintain a good outlook on your computer environment. I only wish I could be the same, but, when I think of myself paying $50 for a game that I find is easily pirated by all, I get steamed. I know, you probably can't see any reasoning in that, but you are also a different generation than I. I don't know if that's the best answer, but it's the only one I've got. Tim McClarren Msg # 523 Dated 03-27-84 09:00:41 From: RICHARD RAWLINS To: ALL Re: PRICES LOREN, I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT, BUT LOOK FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. I AM A PROGRAMMER AS WELL AS AN AUTHOR. IT HAS ALWAYS STRUCK ME AS SOMEWHAT LOPSIDED THAT IF I SPEND SIX MONTHS WRITING A BOOKTHE BOOK WILL SELL FOR A FEW DOLLARS. IF I SPEND THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME (AND CREATIVE NIUS!) WRITING A PIECE OF SOFTWARE, IT WILL SELL FOR SEVERAL HUNED DOLLARS. NONE OF MY PROGRAMS WILL GO TO SOFTWARE HOUSES ON GENERAL PRINCIPAL. THE SOFTWARE I WRITE IS GIVEN AW. WHAT IS SO SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT ABOUT THE TALENTS OF A WRITOF LITERATURE OR FOR THAT MATTER, THE COMPILER OF A DICTIONARY THAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK PROGRAMMERS ARE SO SPECIAL?. COMPARE THE COST OF A DICTIONARY WITH 200,000 WORDS AND THE COST OF AN ONLINE DICTIONY CONTAINING ONLY 20,000-80,000. I JUST THINKTS TIME FOR THE DP PEOPLE AND PROGRAMMERS TO GET DOWN OFF OF THEIR HIGH HORSES AND JOIN E REST OF THE COMMON FOLK. THE COMPUTER REVOLUTION MAY BE HERE, BUUNTIL THE ARTIFICIALLY CONSTRUCTED PRICE STRUCTURES CHANGE, IT WILL STRICTLY BE A GAME FOR THE RICH. THE GREAT PLETHORA OF PUBLIC DOMAIN SOFTWARE ISHE ONLY BRIGHT LIGHT THAT I SEE IN THIS MESS. I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THESE MACHINES FOR A LONG TIME, AND IT'S ONLY RECENTLY THAT PEOPLE HAVE BOTHERED TO THROW OUT SOME DECENT PUBLIC STUFF. HOORAY FOR FREEWARE. Msg # 525 Dated 03-27-84 10:00:47 From: RICHARD RAWLINS To: ALL Re: PIRACY LOREN, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY BASIC PHILOSOPHICAL DISAGREEMENT. WE BOTH SEEM TO THINK ALONG THE SAME LINES. I JUST WISH THAT THINKING AND WANTING WOULD ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING. THE INDUSTRY SEEMS TO HAVE IT OWN INERTIA WHICH IS HARD TO COUNTERACT. UNFORTUNATELY, IT MAY TAKE SOME BIG BLOWUP WITHIN THE INDUSTRY AND USER COMMUNITY TO GET SOMETING CHANGED. WHEN THINGS LIKE THAT HAPPEN THOUGH, IT USUALLY BRINGS IN ALL SORTS OF THIRD PARTIES AND ENDS IN A COMPROMISE WHICH MAKES NO ONE HAPPY. OH WELL,...... Msg # 584 Dated 04-10-84 10:06:02 From: DAN MOORE To: ALL Re: CREATIVE BORROWING Haha, gotcha. This is really going to be on piracy but I didn't want to use that tired word. The problem, really, is quite simple, and has been around for a long time. First, the large majority of people who copy books, records, software, movies, etc... really don't think that what they are doing is wrong. In most cases, it isn't. What is wrong is to give it away to someone else who you know didn't and won't pay for it. Of course, accepting such gifts is just as wrong. What seems to be quite common is that possession of anything means ownership to almost everyone. There is no such thing as a license agreement, no matter what the book says. Thus, if I paid anywhere from $20 to $1000 for a program, I feel I have a God-given right to give it to anyone else. This, of course, makes me a law-breaker. I have been a law-breaker for a long time, exchanging cassette copies of records with friends and making Xerox copies of books and articles without asking the publisher for permis- sion.And you know why people do it? Because chances of ever getting caught, much less punished, are one in hundreds of millions. Because odds are about the same, people cheat on taxes, pilfer office supplies, and mess around at the office. I'm afraid only God could fix it..... Msg # 815 Dated 06-27-84 07:13:18 From: SYSOP To: All Re: TALK WITH JIM BUTTON ALL PCers: I had a nice chat with Jim Button last night, author of PC-File, following a letter I received from him on the matter of distribution restrictions placed on his new PC-Calc. He explained that there have been a number of people, claiming to be "users groups" selling his software for up to $50 to unsuspecting users who believe they have paid him for it. He is placing the restrictions on distrubtion to assist him in pursuing these types legally. He does not intend to restrict legitimate users groups and appreciates the services we provide. As far as the restriction on BBSs, he has found that many people who spend an hour downloading the large programs often feel they have paid enough through phone usage to justify not paying him. Obviously, this is wrong. Further, he has found problems in transmission errors which result in calls to him for help from people who have never registered with him. In some cases, they simply forgot to download one additional module, but call him to try and resolve their problem. I can understand his points on this one. Anyway, Jim Button is NOT trying to destroy user supported software, as my message on the download section may have suggested. He is simply trying to protect his product, just as any of us would. So DON'T bombard Jim with letters! He is o.k. and is working with us on this one. Loren D. Jones, SYSOP Msg # 818 Dated 06-28-84 14:23:21 From: BRUCE BARTHOLOMEW To: LOREN JONES Re: BBS PROSECUTION LOREN, I JUST DOWNLOADED THE FILE ON THE PROSECUTION OF THE BBS SYSOP AND HOW HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER THE POSTING OF MESSAGES ON HIS BOARD. I WAS WONDERING WHAT YOUR REACTIONS ON THIS ARE, ESPECIALLY WITH YOU BEING A LAWYER. I FEEL THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD NOT REST ON THE SYSTEM OPERATOR BUT ON THE PERSON WHO POSTED SUCH MESSAGES. IF THIS ATTITUDE OF PROSECUTING THE SYSOP, THEN THERE COULD BE THE DEVIANT TYPES WHO COULD POST AND ATTEMPT TO GET THOSE SYSTEM OPERATORS IN TROUBLE. THERE IS ALSO THE POSSIBILITY OF ENTRAPMENT, WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE PROBLEM WITH THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE FILE. WHAT ARE THE LEGAL ASPECTS ADN YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS?? BRUCE BARTHOLOMEW Msg # 825 Dated 06-30-84 10:20:49 From: DOUG GRIFFIN To: All Re: PIRACY(DEAD HORSE) I'M VERY PLEASED READING THE DISCUSSION ON PIRACY, AND AM GLAD THERE IS SO MUCH PARTICIPION. SO I'M READY TO DIVE IN. 1. IF A PERSON CREATES SOMETHING I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A MORAL RIGHT TO RESTRICT AND MARKET IT AS THEY SEE FIT. 2. IF A PERSON USES A CREATION OF SOMEONES IN ANY OTHER MANNER THAN THE CREATOR AGREED TO, THEY ARE MORALLY IN THE WRONG. TO ME THESE POINTS ARE THE CRUXF THE ENTIRE ISSUE. ANY OTHER CONSIDERATIONS SUCH AS PRICE, AVAILABILITY, CHANCES OF GETTING CAUGHT, EASE OF PIRACY, AD IFINITUM, ARE SECONDARY, AND PROPABLY JUST TO SOOTHE GUILTY FEELINGS. PIRATES MAY NOT GET CAUGHT MUCH, BUT THEY SHOULD REALIZE IT IS WRONG. THANKS LOREN FOR THE SOAPBOX. MAYBE SOMEONE WILL THINK TWICE AND CEASE. DOUG GRIFFIN Msg # 904 Dated 07-21-84 22:15:50 From: DAVID STONE To: SYSOP Re: (R)OPINION ON PIRACY-AGAI At the risk of reopening a discussion that seems to have cooleddown somewhat, here is an argument for being able to copy and use software which one has not purchased: If I am going to use any one kind of program extensively in my business (in my case it would be a word processor mostly), and if I am going to spend $400$600 to buy that program, I want to make very sure that the program I am buying will be the best for mpurposes. As such, I have no compunction about borrowing a copyof various programs from others to test them out on my own system. These are not progrs I would have otherwise paid for, and if I do like them and paln to use them, I will buymy own copy -- after which I will expect and demand full support. Having said that, I also have to say that I don't have to borrow other peoples copi of software. I am fortunate in that I make my living from writing -- including software reviews, and that means I cget more free software than I have use for. (At this instand I have threeword processors sitting on my shelf that I haven't gotten around to looking at yet). Still, I' be dammned if I'll spend $500 just to test something out. Msg # 907 Dated 07-21-84 23:40:42 From: SYSOP To: DAVID STONE Re: PIRACY...AGAIN! Dave: Thanks for you input. I will agree completely. And I don't think that the borrowing of software for evaluation is the problem. I do the same for the same reasons you stated. It is at the point that you are beyond the evaluation stage that the issue of piracy comes into play. I used Lotus (I already owned VisiCalc) for several months. I reached the point where I knew I was beyond going back to VC...but didn't have the $$$ to pony up for Lotus. I was saved by a client who did and needed some Lotus work done! She bought the package, and I continued to use it. Once my work for her was done, however, D-Day came and I had to purchase Lotus...which I did. I also had a copy of Microsoft Word. While I liked many of the features, I didn't feel a break from WordStar was justified. I am glad I didn't lay down the $400 for it. So, I guess the bottom line is that I agree. But at the point of no return on a particular software package, pay the price. Loren D. Jones, SYSOP Msg # 1001 Dated 08-10-84 01:38:12 From: JACK NORDBY To: SYSOP Re: (R)PIRACY...AGAIN! I REALIZE THE LEGAL ARGUMENTS ARE COMPLEX, BUT I WONDER THIS: IF I BORROW A BOOK FROM A LIBRARY AND READ IT (AT NO COST TO ME) AM I COMMITTING AN ACT OF PIRACY? AFTER ALL, THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK DID NOT WRITE THE BOOK SOLELY MOTIVATED BY GOOD WILL. ALONG THAT LINE, IS IT NOT POSSIBLE THAT SOFTWARE LIBRARIES MIGHT BE SET UP ALONG THAT SAME LINE (I.E., FREE USE) - AND WHEN PEOPLE BUY BOOKS AND THEN SHARE THEM WITH OTHERS, ARE THEY ALSO ENGAGED IN PIRACY? Msg # 1003 Dated 08-10-84 07:18:00 From: SYSOP To: JACK NORDBY Re: (R)PIRACY...AGAIN! That may be ok....but who wants to borrow Lotus 1-2-3 for a night, set everything up on it, then return it to the library where it will be checked out so much he won't get to use it for another 3 weeks???! You also have the question of licensing agreements that restrict the use to one machine. (Which I am not sure are all that enforceable) But as far as looking at an using a purchased copy of a program goes, that isn't the piracy problem. The problem is the copying. If everyone you knew wanted a copy of that book you checked out, and you let everyone photocopy it, that would be illegal. Luckily for authors, that would take more time a more money than it is worth! Maybe someday software copying will be the same. Loren Msg # 1593 Dated 01-15-85 13:49:35 From: RICK VIZACHERO To: ALL Re: THE REAL PIRATES THE REAL PIRATES ARE MITCH KAPOR AND BILL GATES. WHEN THEY CHARGE A REASONABLE. PRICE FOR THE PRODUCT THEY WON'T HAVE SO MUCH COPYING. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WENT TO THE LIBRARY AND PHOTOCOPIED A 300 PAGE NOVEL? IT COSTS $3.95 SO YOU DON'T SPEND MORE THAN THAT TO COPY IT OBVIOUSLY. THE DISCUSSIONS OF RIGHT AND WRONG SHOULD START WITH BLIND CORPORATE GREED. IF THEY WERE USING RATIONAL GREED THEY'D REALIZE THAT WITH LOWER PRICES THEY SELL MORE DOLLARS'S WORTH OF PROGRAMS, MAKE MORE MONEY AND SAVE A BUNDLE ON COPY PROTECTION AND LAWSUITS. THE PROBLEM WILL SOLVE ITSELF WHEN THE MARKET FORCES THE PRICES DOWN. SIMON AND SCHUSTER DOESN'T PRINT ITS BOOKS ON PAPER THAT'S HARD TO COPY. MR. LOTUS ET AL SHOULD TAKE NOTE AND DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF THE HUMAN CONDITION. Msg # 1594 Dated 01-15-85 17:56:54 From: SYSOP To: RICK VIZACHERO Re: (R)THE REAL PIRATES I agree with your position to a point. But I have had people ask if I knew where they could get a copy of Tubo PASCAL...which sells for $49! You CAN'T get any cheaper than that and still hire qualified programmers. Thus, the price/piracy connection is not that strong. You also have to look at the market. How many books do you have that allow you to create entirely new "titles" and "plots" every day, the way you create new spreadsheet applications with Lotus? I don't think the comparison is fair. Ever seen books published by venture capital experts? You pay several thousand bucks for a memeographed prospectus. For what Lotus offers, the price is cheap. Loren D. Jones, Sysop Msg # 1647 Dated 01-28-85 16:46:16 From: RICK VIZACHERO To: SYSOP Re: RE TO RE REAL PIRATES YOU OFFER AN INTERESTING IDEA THAT 123 IS MORE USEFUL THAN A BOOK. IN A BUSINESS SETTING A NOVEL YOU MIGHT READ 1-3 TIMES IS USELESS. THERE ARE REFERENCE BOOKS THOUGH THAT OFFER MORE HELP TO MORE DIFFERENT KINDS OF WORKERS THAN 123 EVER WILL. THE BEST DICTIONARY TAKES A BIGGER TEAM LONGER TO CREATE THAN 123 TOOK ITS CREATORS, AND IT'S MORE USEFUL TO MORE PEOPLE. IT MIGHT ONLY COST $25, AT MOST $75. A REFER- ENCE SUCH AS STRUNK AND WHITE'S ELEMEMENTS OF STYLE WILL SURELY OUTLAST WORDSTAR IN ITS USEFULNESS TO ITS USERS, BUT IT COSTS ABOUT $4. THE EXAMPLE OF BORLAND SOFTWARE PROVES MY POINT. THEY'RE WILDLY SUCCESSFUL AT UNDER $50. THEY FOUND, THOUGH THAT EVEN AT $49 PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT COPY PROTECTION. i BELIEVE IT IS NOT GENERALLY FOR THE PIRACY FACTOR BUT RATHER THE INCONVENIENCE FACTOR. WHAT GOOD IS SIDEKICK LOADED FROM FLOPPY ON AN XT? MOST PIRACY PROMOTES THE SOFTWARE. MANY BELIEVE THE LACK OF PROTECTION HELPED MAKE WORDSTAR AND DBASE II PREEMINENT. PIRACY AS IT'S CALLED TAKES MANY FORMS. ONE WHO KEEPS A COPY AT HOME AND WORK IS ONLY USING ONE AT A TIME FOR CONVENIENCE. THIS PERSON WOULD NOT BUY ANOTHER COPY ANYWAY. COPY PROTECTION MAKES THE MACHINES HARD TO USE, WHICH DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF PC'S. IT ALSO PROBABLY DOESN'T SELL MORE COPIES.